Copyright and/or Proprietary Posts

Author	Comment
SafeTlady229	Copyright and/or Proprietary Posts		Lead	[-]
Posts: 5 8-Oct-08 5:33 AM	Since when is a stupid, insulting post considered Copyrighted and/or Proprietary information? I copied a post, someone made from one Public Board to another, and it was removed by Yuku legal. It didn't contain any personal or copyrighted information. If this is an infraction, why doesn't Yuku state such? Can anyone shed some light on this? TIA.
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Chris W962		#1	[url]	[-]
ADMINISTRATOR Posts: 5709 8-Oct-08 4:00 PM Kudos Lady of the night	Hello, Posts copied from one board to another without permission by the original poster is considered a copyright violation. It doesn't matter whether the boards are public or private. Should you wish to discuss this further, the best way to do this is to submit a ticket with yuku legal.
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gkmt50		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 485 8-Oct-08 4:56 PM	Is pasting a link to the post allowed? Just wondering if there was a better way to handle that between two public boards?
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Chris W962		#3	[url]	[-]
ADMINISTRATOR Posts: 5709 8-Oct-08 5:14 PM Kudos Lady of the night	There is nothing wrong with posting links, because that would mention the source.
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Bad to the Bone Bob		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 378 8-Oct-08 7:33 PM	Does this apply to quoting people from one board to another? What about boards not on yuku? What if someone copied a post I made to another board and someone copied it back to my board? no I'm not joking.
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SmokieTopaz		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 644 9-Oct-08 6:19 AM	Why would anyone want to copy somebody else's posts anyway? Usually posts are copied and pasted from one board to the other for all the wrong reasons. Therefore, I think that yuku legal's policy regarding this issue is appropriate and necessary.
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pink		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 220 9-Oct-08 1:20 PM *Ooh la la!*	I find this page a good reference for plain speaking information about copyright. http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html Especially point 10, about quoting emails or public postings. "...E-mail is not, unless previously agreed, secret. So you can certainly report on what E-mail you are sent, and reveal what it says. You can even quote parts of it to demonstrate. Frankly, somebody who sues over an ordinary message would almost surely get no damages, because the message has no commercial value... " and on the subject of email: "Note as well that, the law aside, keeping private correspondence private is a courtesy one should usually honour." People often get very bent out of shape when they PM something nasty to another person and that person reveals that they did it.
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Zandranna		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 789 9-Oct-08 2:56 PM myrtle	Oh dear this opens a massive can of worms here because oh so many of us copy jokes, news articles etc from board to board. How can we ever know if we are breaking Yuku's particular sense of what is copyright or not. Quite honestly this is very scary. This really does mean that none of our posts are safe from a member of Yuku staff coming on to our board and deleting anything they please. I would also like to ask that is it the legal dept that decides when a post needs to be deleted for legal (ie: Yuku's idea of copyright) or is it any member of Yuku that is considered staff decision to remove a post. Oh please tell me that before any post is deleted it is read by the legal dept and their advice taken. Last Edited By: Zandranna 9-Oct-08 2:59 PM. Edited 1 time.
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pink		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 220 9-Oct-08 3:19 PM *Ooh la la!*	Almost every joke that exists (practically) is public domain. You can't dispute copyright if you didn't own the copyright in the first place. Yuku doesn't have it's own "sense" of what is copyright or not, copyright is quite clear. And legal don't wander around looking for violations. Violations have to be reported, and they have to be valid. They don't get deleted unread. If someone complains, then they'll look into it and evaluate it on the evidence provided. A copyright violation is the reproducing of another's words, often without attribution, and beyond what is allowed as fair use. If I say I am hot, and you post on another board "Alison says she is hot" that is not a copyright violation. You are reporting a factual statement and you've reworded slightly. If you post "Alison said 'I am hot'. " then you are directly quoting me. But hey - is that a copyright violation? If I went to legal and complained that you stole my copyright I'd get a blank stare and a request not to let the door hit me on the bum on my way out. That complaint would be pointless and trivial. Copyright law is there to protect the commercial value of works, and the value of authorship for substantial creative works. Statements on forums usually have no commercial value, and often they have no creative value. Forum topics that are conversational often use common terms and greetings, and by the very nature that language has, people use the same sentences to describe the same things. So while copyright law could technically still apply, on a practical level, if one person makes a statement - eg "I am going camping this weekend and I am going to get drunk." and then someone quotes that on another board, there isn't really a violation occurring in a moral sense. Some people report violations because something they posted on board A was repeated on board B - who are their bitter enemies. Legal really has better things to do with their time than mediate childish battles between boards. Board B could just rephrase the statement so it wasn't a quote. Usually the actual thing that the person is upset about was that someone shared their plans at all. And there is not law to prevent people from talking to others and telling them things that they know.
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Bad to the Bone Bob		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 378 9-Oct-08 4:01 PM	No matter what the case I would expect advance notification that Yuku was planning on deleting posts and why and give that particular board administration the opportunity to address the problem themselves. Simply barging in and deleting things won't go over to well. It gaurunteed to cost yuku a board. I also would expect the burden of proof would lie with the person making the complaint and only the original poster could make the complaint.
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Jibril Ammon		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2517 10-Oct-08 5:07 AM munificent member I felt so automated	Copyright has become a very funny thing. Generally it's best to ask permission before reposting anything. But Bob, Yuku has already stated it's right to remove anything they want in the TOU 3 Content You understand and agree that Yuku may review and delete any Content in its sole discretion. You also agree that Yuku owns all profiles, domain and subdomain addresses within its network, and may take any action with respect to any address at any time for any reason in its sole discretion. Yuku does not claim any ownership rights in any Content that you post to the Service. After posting your Content to the Service, you continue to retain all ownership rights in such Content, and you continue to have the right to use your Content in any way you choose. By posting any Content on or through the Service, you hereby grant to Yuku a limited license to use, modify, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Content solely on and through the Service. Without this license, Yuku would be unable to provide the Service. The license you grant to Yuku is non-exclusive (meaning you are free to license your Content to anyone else in addition to Yuku), fully-paid and royalty-free (meaning that Yuku is not required to pay you for the use on the Service of the Content that you post), sublicensable (so that Yuku is able to use its affiliates and subcontractors such as Internet content delivery networks to provide the Service), and worldwide (because the Internet and the Service are global in reach). This license will terminate at the time you remove your Content from the Service. The license does not grant Yuku the right to sell your Content, nor does the license grant Yuku the right to distribute your Content outside of the Yuku and its sublicensees Services. You understand that all Content, whether posted in public or restricted groups, is the sole responsibility of the originator of such Content. This means that you, and not Yuku, are entirely responsible for all Content that you post, upload, distribute, disseminate or otherwise transmit via the Service. You understand that by using the Service, you may be exposed to Content that is offensive, indecent or objectionable. Under no circumstances will Yuku be liable in any way for any Content, including, but not limited to, any errors or omissions in any Content, or loss or damage of any kind whatsoever incurred as a result of the use of or exposure to any Content through the Service. You agree that you must evaluate, and bear all risks associated with, the use of or exposure to any Content, including any reliance on the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of such Content. You understand that the technical processing and transmission of the Service, including Content, may involve (a) transmissions over various networks; and (b) changes to conform and adapt to technical requirements of connecting networks or devices. You acknowledge that Yuku does not pre-screen, control, edit or endorse Content made available through the Service and has no obligation to monitor the Content made available via the Service. If Yuku discovers Content that does not appear to conform to this Agreement, Yuku may investigate and determine in good faith and in its sole discretion whether or not to remove the Content. Yuku is under no obligation to do so and Yuku will have no liability or responsibility for performance or non-performance of such activities. You agree to resolve directly and exclusively with third parties any disputes you may have about messages that they post. You may also contact the Domain Administrator to request a removal. So it's not like they are removing without cause or warning... something a lot of people forget when agreeing to things like a TOU, when you agree to it (and always read completely the TOU people!) you've already agreed and acknowledged Yuku can remove without advanced notice (because they've already given you a blanket advanced notice) anything they determine needs to be removed. It protects them from any liability if it escalates into a civil court matter. Everyone does this, your ISP has it in their TOS, so does your web page hosting, all message boards/blogs, ect. Any potential for electronic transmission of written content or media has a blanket statement that they can remove anything at their discretion. And yes, I read TOUs Ever since I worked for an ISP and people yelled at me that we had to provide service at all times (we weren't allowed downtime for more than an hour so they were going to sue us) and that I couldn't suspend their service for non payment... yes... they told me it was illegal to shut them off for non payment... I got that mostly from businesses that didn't feel they needed to pay their bills... but I learned from that job how extremely important it is to read the TOU completely before getting mad
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Bad to the Bone Bob		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 378 10-Oct-08 6:09 AM	I know what the TOU says, but if and when the need to remove a post arises, it would be wise to inform the administration that there was a problem. Without a communication that there is problem it will only continue. We aren't talking about simple daily operations, we are talking when a post is reported to the legal dept. We aren't talking about content that is a blatant violation of the TOU, we are talking about a person reporting a simple post that was copied verbatum. For example if someone wrote a poem or a short story and it got copied I could understand requestiing the post get removed, but there are some people who will chit chat about the weather and gripe if their post is reposted elsewhere.
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sniksnak		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 748 10-Oct-08 6:58 AM munificent member	The ISP I worked for many years ago always, always notified the alleged offender before making the decision to remove content that was deemed copyright or offensive. I'm with Bob - it's only common courtesy to notify an owner of an account or message board if it's being investigated and/or if it's going to have administrative disciplinary action taken BEFORE the action is actually taken.
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Jibril Ammon		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2517 10-Oct-08 7:07 AM munificent member I felt so automated	Have you ever tried to have a conversation with someone in a legal department, Bob? That's what PR is for I do understand what you are saying, honestly. It's not that I disagree, but legal departments usually can't talk about what's going on because even the simplest matters get complicated when legal is involved. Even if you contact them directly in a situation like that, they probably can't say anything anyhow... even with the person who initially made the report. At work, when anyone ever mentions anything about getting a lawyer or any legal action at all, we have to stop the call immediately and transfer them to legal. Most companies operate under the you can't say anything... even if we know it's just an idle threat. Everything has to be handled behind the scenes in case a lawyer does get involved. Anything that we say, the customer says, or the company says becomes a liability if it ever goes to trial. Even a warning or any communication from legal to the parties involved could be a problem. Heck, even the person who reposted the post could accidentally do some serious damage to themselves if they actually discussed it with legal.
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Bad to the Bone Bob		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 378 10-Oct-08 8:18 AM	Have you ever tried to have a conversation with someone in a legal department, Bob? No, I'm 4 years old and haven't run a business a for 25 years. Thank you sniksnak I'm glad someone understands my point. Which are as follows: 1. if a reason for removing a post is not given then there is no reason to remove the post 2. removing a post without informing the administration will not stop further "violations" 3. not informing a board owner of legal action will lead to confusion and more unhappy board owners 4. there is a world of difference between drivel and literary art 5 board administration can more effectivily moderate their board than network staff
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Silver Dollar		#15	[url]	[-]
ADMINISTRATOR Posts: 832 10-Oct-08 8:36 AM Yuku Moderator	I don't work the Legal queue and never have, but I have made many reports to Legal, over the last 7 years, and I have seen how they react to different types of evidence. First, Legal never takes any action solely on the complaint of an individual or even a group of individuals. "Someone posted something mean about me" or "Someone reposted something I wrote at another board" is not enough. Legal will not even look at a claim unless the claimant provides Legal with specific links to the evidence. They won't even look into something I report without links. So, if someone claims that someone else infringed on their copyright, they are going to have to provide at least a link to the original post and the post they consider to be a violation before Legal will take any action at all. The idea that Legal edits or deletes or bans on nothing more than a whiny complaint from an unhappy board member is misinformation that has circulated at ezboard and Yuku for years (usually by the unhappy, whiny board member). Please disregard that myth. Second, the problem with giving advance notice to an administrator or user to the effect that there is some sort of problem with their post, board, public profile, private messages, etc. is this: It gives them the chance to alter or destroy the evidence. I have seen porn, warez, pirating, and other illegal activity vanish into the mist within minutes, before Legal could see it, just because the admin became aware that a moderator had viewed the board. In some situations, it's reasonable for Legal to ask an administrator to remove something on their board, to put it in a private forum, to restrict access to 18+, to make their board MBA, or to remove specific material within 24 hours, and Legal does do that. In other situations, the TOU violation or illegal activity is so egregious that Legal will take steps immediately to protect it by banning a user or locking down a board with no warning, to make sure the evidence is preserved. Third, Legal always has to think of evidence in terms of not just a Yuku admin or user doing something naughty, but in terms of what they will be able to show to a law enforcement agency or attorney if the violation becomes evidence in a criminal investigation or lawsuit -- and some users who can afford the cost of it will sue over basically nothing, so Legal has to be prepared for that. As ezboard and Yuku users who are often not aware of all the facts in a case, it may not always seem consistent to you, but Legal has good reasons -- which they are not going to share with you -- for acting as they do on a case-by-case basis. [Edit: Typo demon. -SD] Last Edited By: Silver Dollar 10-Oct-08 10:28 AM. Edited 1 time.
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SmokieTopaz		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 644 10-Oct-08 1:22 PM	Second, the problem with giving advance notice to an administrator or user to the effect that there is some sort of problem with their post, board, public profile, private messages, etc. is this: It gives them the chance to alter or destroy the evidence. I have seen porn, warez, pirating, and other illegal activity vanish into the mist within minutes, before Legal could see it, just because the admin became aware that a moderator had viewed the board. I totally agree with the above statement.
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SafeTlady229		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5 10-Oct-08 1:43 PM	First, Legal never takes any action solely on the complaint of an individual or even a group of individuals. "Someone posted something mean about me" or "Someone reposted something I wrote at another board" is not enough. Legal will not even look at a claim unless the claimant provides Legal with specific links to the evidence. They won't even look into something I report without links. So, if someone claims that someone else infringed on their copyright, they are going to have to provide at least a link to the original post and the post they consider to be a violation before Legal will take any action at all. The idea that Legal edits or deletes or bans on nothing more than a whiny complaint from an unhappy board member is misinformation that has circulated at ezboard and Yuku for years (usually by the unhappy, whiny board member). Please disregard that myth. I beg to differ. This is No myth. A member of another "public" board reported a post I copied to another "public" board and it was removed. Now, I'm sure they provided the link to that post, yes. However, I still don't see that as copyright or proprietary infringement. To me, it's just sour grapes and Yuku legal is feeding on them.
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templework		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1271 10-Oct-08 3:41 PM "temporarily dysfunctional" munificent member	maybe I missed it but I was just wondering - how do we know it actually was 'Legal' that removed the post? Did they post or communicate somewhere indicating they are the ones that removed the post or did someone else just say it was 'Legal'...
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pink		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 220 11-Oct-08 2:06 AM *Ooh la la!*	A member of another "public" board reported a post I copied to another "public" board and it was removed. Now, I'm sure they provided the link to that post, yes. However, I still don't see that as copyright or proprietary infringement. To me, it's just sour grapes and Yuku legal is feeding on them. There is a difference between a public board, and public domain. If you copied it without permission, then it's copyright infringement. If the board was public you could have simply linked to it.
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SafeTlady229		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5 11-Oct-08 5:43 AM	Temple, it stated that it had been removed by "Yuku Legal". Ok, so "linking" to it is legal. Thanks. I just wish they'd spell this stuff out.
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